JB: Polymaths are people who are good at many things. I find them annoying. For ten years I've been annoyed by our next guest, Josh Jensen, principle UX architect for Stone Rooster and one of the most annoyingly talented people I have ever met. Josh gives us his take on React and Next versus Vue and Nuxt. We also take a retrospective look at some of the not so modern challenges digital commerce faced and faces, and whether composable has solved for them or introduced their own set of challenges. Finally, we talk about the future of passkeys and passwords, and how it affects personalization and payment, and how Josh's path to e-commerce traces back to the control room of a Virginia -class nuclear submarine.

JB: All right. Well, welcome to Commerce chats from High Velocity. I'm Justin Burrows, hype man. Joined with me today is Josh Jensen. What is your title? What do you do?

JJ: Oh, yeah. What is my title? I think I'm the Principal UI/ UX Architect. I think that's the title I was given. I feel like titles can be semi-arbitrary.

JB: Yeah, I am a hype man, so. Yeah.

JJ: Well, that fits you. Yeah. You.

JB: Yeah. It's funny, it kind of. It, it accentuates the emotional element of the job, you know? And, I didn't want to be called an evangelist because that just doesn't. It's very 2010. So what what are you using? What are you user experiencing user interfacing on? What are you architecting?

JJ: Yeah. So I you know, there's I feel like there's two sides to UX, right. Like there's the studying user behaviors and running a B tests and you know, doing user testing and interviewing people, all that stuff. I don't do that. I'm a terrible designer. that would be an insult to designers everywhere if I was put into that group I am on the development side of things. So I've been doing this for a long time. you know, architecting front ends, everything from, you know, taking mockups from designers and that side of the UX team and turning it into usable website. you know, optimizing page load times and, ADA best practices, right, for accessibility. and, you know, just trying to make a website ultra performant so that users can, in our case, write for e-commerce, find what they want, put in the cart and give companies their money as quick as possible. Yeah, there's little friction as possible right now.

The Art of the Page Load

JB: Has that process of a page load, the page loading optimization. has that changed significantly over the time that you've been doing it, like what you would do to make a page load quickly?

JJ: Oh, sure. you know, back in the day, you know, they would have sprites, for instance, right? So, like, all the little icons on the page would go into a single image, and then you would use CSS to kind of move that image around and show just, I don't know, a calculator icon or something. Right. now we don't do that because with http, http two you get multiplexing. So you can download a ton of stuff at once instead, you know, in, in parallel instead of everything happening in serial, which was why you downloaded one larger image used to minify and obfuscate or, concatenate everything together, all your CSS and all your JavaScript, and you put it in one big file. Download it once, and then it would be cached in the browser, and you wouldn't have to worry about that anymore. But now you don't. You don't have to do all of that, right? Like you still use some of those same concepts, but you don't really. You can, bundle JavaScript that's only necessary on that page, but you can download a whole bunch of JavaScript or CSS all in parallel, so you don't have to have, you know, a giant JavaScript anymore that you download. Once you're gonna split it up into a bunch of smaller packages that you can download all at once. so, you know, yeah, it's it's changed a lot and there's a lot of great tools out there to help you, you know, get all of that stuff, all the all the goodness, all the performance goodness right out of the box.

JB: Goodness. Yeah. Is is good, obviously. but I've also been reading it. It seems like I've, I've just kind of gotten into the, the was it the routing layer. is is that something that you, you deal with?

JJ: yes. Yeah. And so, you know, I've over my time, I've, I, a whole bunch of different things have been used for routing. You know, there's, there's just the inherent built in behavior where you name a file and then you link to that file. Right. there now if you're using Vue or React, or, you know, their subsequent frameworks, Nuxt or Next. Right. or angular, you know, there's, there's routers built in where it handles all of that, within the, the framework. And you still have to work to get it to get it working. But if you utilize that, there's a lot of performance enhancements there too. Right? So, it won't load everything. You'll already have some stuff there. You can there's a there's other things. There's always new things like prefetching. prefetching, assets that user might use on the next click. Right. so there's all that stuff, but yes, routing, you know, back, you and I, we never touched on this, but you and I go back a long ways, back on ATG projects. right now I'm working on a Sitecore project which feels very familiar to ATG in that it's, it's trying to be a monolith. Right. Like all in one. Yeah. Um, so it does all the routing there. But we've worked on projects together with like content stack where it's a little bit more manual. you can it all depends on how you set things up. Right. so there's that whole monolith versus microservices or headless. So you know the paradigms are changing. You still have to do you still have to do routing somehow. But you just you know there's different ways to do it now and different tools help you optimize all of that and fetch stuff, assets, javascripts images, all that, beforehand or, you know, only the ones that you need. So there's a yeah, everybody's focused on performance and accessibility and all that good stuff. And making it easier, you know, lowering the point of entry so that people can get all that stuff easier.

Composable has its own kind of Complications

JB: Well, you mentioned that. I mean, even monolith or headless, you still have to set that stuff up. And it seems like there it seems to me like there's a lot more stuff to set up nowadays, with like, composable architectures. Is that is that your. I mean, do you have to, like, really be a big brain propeller head to, to properly set that up?

JJ: I mean, they wouldn't give the job to me if you needed to be that big of a brain

Right. Well, um, no, I mean, there I would say, you know, I think it's equally as complicated as it used to be before. You needed to have such an expertise in one thing, right? Like the ATG architects that you and I have worked with are absolutely brilliant, right? They know the ins and outs of that. And, you know, how to optimize, how to optimize a whole architecture from like, servers and, you know, pools and like, literally everything about ATG, the ins and outs of it, what to tweak, what not to touch, like what to cache, what not to cache, how to, you know, how to, do really everything within it. Now with composable architectures, you need that expertise in making everything talk together. But then in, you know, I am creating a middleware layer so that everything can communicate and, you know, you're, you're getting what you want from it. There's requirements for each individual product. And then like, how do you want that to work within your system. What are your business requirements. So

you need to have an expertise in, you know, like AWS or GCP as well as like, you know, each of those individual products that you would use there. And you would need to have an expertise in, that, that product, that composable product that you're trying to integrate into your system. So I think, I think it's more that you need a breadth of knowledge rather than a depth of knowledge in one thing. Now, if that makes sense.

JB: Yeah. No it does.

Browser Interoperability, Then and Now

JB: Now, I remember, you used to refer to a website that was it, like, is IE 11 dead? do you remember that?

JJ: Yeah, I well, it was something that I forgot about because I did die, and I was very. It was a happy day. I actually put it on my calendar when I found out the end of life for I, Yeah, I do remember that. I think we were. That was like, way back in the day. Was that when we were working at Rue 21?

JB: I'm I'm not sure, but it was. I remember the day, though. It was, because I also remember the projects like leading up to that. is that a, I mean, we do cross-browser testing, but is that less of an issue now that most of it's kind of chromium?

JJ: Yeah, I do think it's less of an issue. There's still things. I would say that Safari is probably the new IE, just in the fact that it's, you know, it is WebKit based, which is great, but they do. You know, Apple thinks that they're all high and mighty and they do things different than everybody else. Sometimes not to industry standards. you know, again, they're WebKit based. So most of it just works fine. but I think that and especially because in the US, iOS is the most popular at least for most of the clients that we work with, the target audience is usually iOS based. And so you have to you have to hit those really hard, during testing. And so you find some fairly specific safari bugs

JB:Yeah.

JJ: But yeah, I would say that, you know, between Firefox, Chrome, Edge and Safari, things are in a much better state than they used to be with IE especially.

JB: Yeah, that was in and I remember like just having an update for one browser would just throw in a whole cascade of regressions.

JJ:  You used to have to, you know, test for browser functionality a lot. I would say we don't do that that much anymore. I think my favorite reference site now for if we're allowed to use something is caniuse.com/ and I love that website. Great site. I, yeah, I, it's definitely in a better state. You don't have to create an IE specific CSS file anymore with all those overrides and, you know, funny, funny little code snippets that you got to insert everywhere just in case something's IE9. Yeah, you don't have to do that anymore. It's definitely getting better. 

Outlook for for React and Vue and how edgy is too edgy.

JB: So are there are there any things, any annoyances that have replaced browser cross browser issues? I mean what's the what's stuck in your craw right now before your job days? Yeah yeah yeah. We're like that. Yeah.

JJ: what's stuck in my craw right now? I don't know, I think we're heading in a good direction overall. I think there's so many different technologies always evolving fast. I think, but there's so many different platforms and, frameworks and, you know, tools out there and it's changing so quickly. It's hard to keep up with everything. you know, if you're dealing with the bleeding edge, I think it's harder than ever to keep up with that. We usually I would say we tend to be slightly slower to, inheriting or trying to use newer technologies just in that, you know, you don't want the bleeding edge, maybe leading edge, but bleeding edge is tough. You have no idea if it's if that product's going to gain traction or not.

JB: Well, and I mean, like a what I find interesting is you there are a lot of pathways that end up being an island unto themselves. Like you go like all of these frameworks are supposed to be interoperable, but they always have like little gotchas, on there where I had some I don't know if you call it vendor lock or whatever, but, so but like I'm thinking about so you mentioned like react and so you have React and Next.js and then another popular one is, is it. It's the one with Nuxt and Vue. Is there a difference? I mean, I mean, yes, obviously there's a difference. But do you look at it like as a, Chevy/Ford type of thing where, yes, they're distinctions, but, you know, they're in the same milieu.

JJ: I would say yes. Between Vue and React. Vue and React are like libraries. They're JavaScript libraries that allow people to add reactivity to a website. whereas Next and Nuxt. So next is react based and Nuxt is Vue-based. they're frameworks that allow you to bootstrap, you know, the they lower that point of entry for a whole bunch of stuff. They add a whole bunch of great stuff like routing and caching and data fetching and all of that kind of stuff. They help you create a website more quickly and easily or a web application. It doesn't have to be a site. But, you know, I would say those are the two more popular. well, I'm saying between frameworks, but between like, but like in the frameworks, I mean, you see people, it's like, Next.js is the thing. And then some people, say, Nuxt.js, I know that there's other ones out there.

JB: But from your perspective, there's a lot of hype and there's a lot of, you know, conferences and people get up and say, this is the one. This is the one. As as a guy who doesn't have a dog in the fight, other than it makes your job easier. Do you, do you do you see that there's a difference?

JJ: I think so but I would compare the difference between Vue and React. so, react, you're using JSX or TSX. and with Vue, you're really just these Vue files they create, they're really just HTML templates with JavaScript and CSS or, you know, sass or whatever, however you want to do it, and you can use TypeScript in them as well. but I would say that Vue is easier, easier to learn if you're new to the whole, you know, reactive concept and, the concept of a virtual DOM and all that. whereas react, I would say there's a lot more to learn right away to be proficient, even to get to be a beginner. But once you pick it up, you know, you can move around fairly easily. I when I was learning, you know, I was doing Vue and Nuxt for a little bit and trying to play around with that while doing my full-time job. And then, did the same thing with react and then ended up, you know, working on a bunch of react stuff and then switching back to Vue. And, you know, it's I think it's like any programming, it's all syntax. Like once you understand the concepts of what you're trying to utilize a tool for, then you can just switch to a tool that's trying to do the same thing and just learn the syntax. Right? Like as long as it's got good documentation, you can figure it out. I would say, you know, if you're trying to learn one of these frameworks or Vue is probably easier to learn. I would say react is probably more popular, a little bit more difficult to learn. But I think they, can do the same thing with both of them.

Why Josh Hates Infinite Scrolling

JB: So. Why do you hate infinite scrolling so much?

JJ: Oh my God, everybody infinite scrolling, didn't they?

JB: is that the same as lazy load?

JJ: they it depends on how people use them, but I would say infinite scrolling is lazy. Loading pages rather than using pagination, people would want to lazy load, pages of results, right? So as a user scrolls down that they can infinitely scroll, you know, as long as there's enough results all the way down the page and they'll just keep scrolling. I would say the hardest thing with that was returning to the correct result when a user hit the back button. anybody that has ever done front end web dev knows that the back button is super annoying, but used very much. I mean, I use it, I use it myself, but, you know, getting the expected result on that page. If you're at the 1,009th item down the page, you need to make sure you get there. you know, browsers, browsers have done a ton with history API and the back button and all of that. So it's gotten infinitely easier. But I think Google even came out and they had done, they had done a test where they were doing infinite scroll on. I think they went back to pagination. I did I send you something? I could have sworn I read that.

JB: We generally tend to keep in touch about particular pet peeves we have. So I think that that and Wysiwyg editors, rich text editors, rich text editors doesn't everybody want a rich text editor? Everybody wants a rich text editor.

JJ: Just in case you want to be able to put HTML on a page, you need that rich text editor. Even though we warn everybody that they will break the site, it will go down. They'll say, oh, I don't know what happened. And then we'll find a rich text editor that has a brand new entry, and it was some broken HTML that ruined the page.

JB: Yeah, sorry, that blink tag was deprecated, you know?

JJ: So no more Christmas lights all over the page?

JB: No, we're gonna do a starfield background with an animated, letter going into a box with a link to your email address. So. That's funny, that that kind of balance between, like, what the user needs versus what the user wants, and trying to balance that. I mean, one of the things that's fun about working on a product is that when you're working, when you're working for somebody and you're trying to figure out, like what they need, it's a negotiation of conversation. And they don't always follow recommendations. And, you know, that's that's part of it.

JJ: At first...

JB: Yeah. At first. Yeah. You work on them though

JJ: Yeah, I, I completely agree. And you always had, you were always much earlier on in requirements with the clients, but, you know, you know, me, I like to push back on things that we have experience like lots of years of experience with that gives companies pain points. Right? Or that gives users pain. I just one of them being infinite scrolling. It's great that, you know, I think that everybody went to infinite scrolling. And then they realized it's not all that they thought it was. And then they go back to pagination because it's more consistent. like, I like personally, I like the, I like the user experience better myself. I don't I don't always fit in with the majority of, you know, a B tests. but, you know, Amazon uses it. I think Amazon, Walmart, Google, they all use pagination. I think they probably have much bigger UX budgets than we do. Yeah, I tend to follow what they're doing. I know a big push now is like long scroll checkouts. So like single page checkout actual like where it's just one big long form. not like, not like even not leaving checkout but just reloading via Ajax. Certain pieces of the page. just literally just going all the way down the page. Just one huge long form of, you know, user info, shipping, billing, confirmation. I don't like that either. I like to lead the user to you don't want the user to have a whole bunch of stuff to do at once, right? Like just assume that the user wants to do as little work as possible and just give you what information, like just keep asking them for little bits of information and then all of a sudden take their money and give them their product. I think it's overwhelming to have, you know, five forms on a page that you need to fill out. But I guess we'll see in three, 3 to 5 years what happens if that much go backwards? Yep, yep. So I wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. Justin 

Proliferation of Payment Methods in Checkout

JB: What’s going to happen with payments, I think like, keep taking them. Yeah. No, but I get to I, I'm like I go to, I go to checkouts now and now instead of, you know, just entering your credit card, now you've got bread, you've got what was it, Klarna. You've got PayPal, you've got Apple Pay, Google Pay. You even had there was even like a, like a visa passport or something like that.

JJ: There's you know, Amazon Amazon Pay. Some sites take Venmo I think.

JB: Like I feel like now you were probably I don't you remember the RSS feed era where like everybody had like a feed reader and you would and you would have like all of those chicklets for all the different, yes, feed readers.

Yes.

JB: I feel like I feel very 2009. Like what? What's gonna happen, I mean, I just see these as the same chicklets, but for payment groups What’s gonna happen from a UI perspective? I mean, it seems like a god-awful mess.

JJ: Yeah, well, I mean, the more you have to integrate because it's a front end and back-end integration. And so and there's a lot of work that goes into it, especially with, you know, companies need to give you access to, you know, their portal like the Google Pay or Apple Pay portal. And, you know, there's a lot of setup and testing to make sure it's all working properly. And then it's a lot of interaction with the client to get access to what you need. So it's it's definitely a process to get working. But I think again, it's that okay, I have all my information saved there. You know, like if I'm on Android I got Google Pay. If I'm on, Apple or iOS, I have Apple Pay. People just they trust the companies and they have their information saved there, and they just click it once and it's got their shipping, billing, and payment info in it, and they click it and click it again, and then they have their product. So again, it's like, I don't want to fill out 80 forms if I don't have to. I'm just going to click that button and be done with it now. Like yeah, it's kind of like the social sign in, right? Like, do I want to sign in with Google? Do I want to sign in with Twitter or GitHub or whatever? Right. Like it I click it, it sends me a one time password or, you know, makes me use my pass key now. yeah. Right. passkeys are great now. And just again, you're trying to remove friction from whatever process the user is trying to complete.

Personal Tech Ecosystems and Universal Passkeys and Personalization

JB: I'm sorry no offense, but as an Android user, don't you find that frustrating?

JJ: Frustrating how? And I'm not offended that you called me an Android user because I am.

JB: So as a green texter, you're in two different ecosystems, right? You're on a mac. At least I assume you were. I got your I inherited your computer before that was a mac. Maybe you've gone to PC, I don't know.

JJ: Well, I had I do prefer Mac still. I think they tend to be much faster with the behemoths that we work. You know, all the VMs and, programs that we use tend to be very, process intensive. I think they all run better on a mac. and I have, you know, 12 years of muscle memory with the keyboard and shortcuts and all that. So I remapped all my keys on my windows machine.

JB: but so you're on a windows machine?

JJ: I am now. Yep.

JJ: Yeah. No, I mean, they all do the same thing. Look at, look at how, iOS and Android like, what is the great innovation? Like, what's it been? I don't, I don't know, everything's just kind of boring. Like oh wow. Now on Apple, you can move. You can move your tiles around like, oh great. Like Android's been able to do that forever. And then Android's trying to figure out face ID right. Like okay what. Like what's new though. Yeah nothing. It's all the same. It all does the same thing. It's more like you said the green the green text box. Right. Like, yeah okay. Like even Apple has to start. You know, the EU has basically forcing them to inherit or adopt RCS, right. Yeah. So there's more it will be more secure at some point. right now we're getting way into the weeds. You got me all started on iOS and Android.

JB: Well, I think it's important. I think I think that because that's where, you know, all of our interactions with the customers, like, well, not all of them, but the majority of our interactions with the customer are on mobile. And like, if you're in a mixed, you know, a mixed tech household and you've got your Apple passkey, your stuff here, but you're on your, your computer, but then your phone is like not Apple. You know, it's like, you know, it's like Google saying, you know, it's like, can I, suggest a really strong password for you? And that's great. And then the next time I go to the site, it's like, who the hell are you? Yeah, I realize, you know, I'm not gonna I'm not typing all of that, you know, looking up on my computer, you know, and it kind of it it bites you. But that's like. Like you're saying, like, that's one of the barriers, to people interacting in your site that they find a way to get access to their saved information. Right? And like, there is even somebody was, guys, I think it was the guy from, Kelly from Commercetools was, talking about how the web, the World Wide Web is going to be over because it's, we're not going to have browsers anymore. It's all going to be like AI fed stuff you know, straight into our brains, I guess so, I guess so, yeah. but I, I what I think is interesting about that is being able to identify yourself and to be seen by whatever system you're, you're working with to do that in a way that's frictionless. and so I find that I find that's really interesting, like, especially like with the passkey stuff where there are certain sites that I log into and I don't, I don't ever have to do a password, you know. Yeah.

JJ: It says, yeah, you use your face ID or your fingerprint or whatever wherever you saved your passkey. yeah, I agree, it's great. I, you know, not everybody, not every site or app supports Passkeys yet, but I, you know, enough do where, I use them all the time. I have had some issues, you know  as the, you know, as you switch, like when I switch to this new computer, I had a passkey saved on the other one, and then I had to update them, you know, but again, just you would have had to do the same thing with a password if you forgot your password or anything. Yeah.

JB: Yeah, it. Well, it's funny because I think that of all of the technical challenges that I've had to tackle in my career as a BA, like all of the things getting into the nitty gritty and what the settings and configurations need to be, the hardest thing I've ever had to do is manage the access and accounts for my kids on my phone. It is the most complex, counterintuitive thing, and I think that's where, you know, it's it's hard. It's hard. You know, I any all of my tech support calls from my family are, you know, about stuff like that. And, you know, it's, it's I think that making that a simpler, safer process is, you know, would really be really be great.

JJ: because I think writing down this million dollar idea, we'll I'll get back to you. We can we can work on this. All right?

JB: It's it's worth hundreds of dollars.

JJ: I think that's 100 tons of hundreds of dollars even.

JB: Yeah, because I think that that little gate is like, if you know that that you're starting a completely different, a completely different interaction with the customer. if you come in as a known person, you know.

JJ: Yeah.

JB: Because I mean, like, imagine you would go into a store and they were like, okay, I like to buy this. And they're like, well, first I need you to write. I need you to fill out this entire form before, you know, you get something. What if you walked into a grocery store and they had basically everything that you usually buy, right. There you go grab that and then go get your one offs. Right. So yeah, once you're authenticated

Personalization and Its Limits

JJ: it's great because you have a nice, personalized experience. Yeah. which is, you know, when you, when you think about it, that that can be a little weird. But I think people have gotten so used to just giving sites their data, their basic information and moving along, which is good and bad. Right? Like because especially with all the breaches that are out there now, I have no idea, you know, who could potentially have your data. So you have to be careful about what you do put out there. But, all these all these companies Google, Apple, they want your data. That's what they want because they personalize experiences and then give ads, I guess not so much Apple, but definitely Google, Facebook. Right. Like they're selling ads.

JB: And I think they're like two things get overlooked. when people are designing like their web experience. one is everybody's on mobile like so many people are on mobile, even for sites that you would think would be stodgy and that you wouldn't use mobile for, people still will look it up on their phone. and it's, it's like, you know, that dumb thing that, UX architects do where they, they, they design for a 55 inch HDTV screen.

JJ: you know, that's what we that's what we code on.

JB: Because that's and then, so then you end up with something that looks great for the developer screen. But is somebody on their phone being like what the what is. Yes. You know, or like if it's me then it's like like that. sorry. I was taking my glasses off and pretending to squint at my phone. Oh, sorry

JJ: I was picturing you. And what you were doing.

JB: And the other one is that they talk about, like, everybody loves personalization, and it's like 90% of your browsers are not logged in. Yeah, like 90% of your traffic are, are there for the first time. And you think you're going to move the needle by like having a special thing pop up? You know, I find that like, like unless there was something where you can, you know, be known, you know, for who you are or as a user, you know, personalization. I don't know, I it doesn't seem especially compelling to me.

JJ: I think it's also one of those things that kind of like tagging the reason you do tagging like, Tealium or Google Analytics or whatever, they again, you're trying to get information about the user so that you can optimize interactions with specifically them or the website in general. See how people are using it. Right. I think the problem with that is everybody wants it. I've only seen a handful of companies actually use it. you know, like even in its most basic form, like, oh, I want a B testing. And then we'll come back three years later and be like, great, show me like what you guys have been using that for. Oh, we haven't gotten to that yet. Oh, but you, you did pay like half $1 million for us to do that. Yeah. but you didn't want to use it. So I think that, I think it's this happy medium between having a plan and, like, implementing that plan. And just saying, oh, we'll do that after because you can do it after, right? You can still collect user data and then, and then use it for personalization later, which I think people collect that data and they just end up not even using it. well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that personalization is fine. I think using the using the data for your customer behavior and then, you know, improving the site, you can make certain, you know, insights about what, how segments, certain segments behave. But that generally is just a that's not something that needs to be dynamically done. That's just you're just improving your site.

JB: It's like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs where, you know, like personalization is up there with like, perfect self-actualization. And it's ideal. It's great. But at the base of that, you can't sell a product if it's not up on your site. You can't sell a product if the image is broken, you'd get that.

JJ: What if that canoe doesn't fit on your screen?

JB: Well, we'll just we'll turn the canoe shape like this, and then it'll be a long. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm on camera again. I was moving the. I was going to move the canoe, vertical, like up and down.

What Josh is Watching and Getting Canadian Cell Service in the USA

JB: So, is there anything. What are you watching?

JJ: well, we are watching, Presumed innocent. Have you seen this?

JB: I haven't

JJ: Yeah. Yeah Apple TV. and Jake Gyllenhaal was a DA I think. And he was having an affair with one of the other ones and she was murdered. It's. Oh it's so well written. But you know we, I think everybody has gotten so used to just being able to consume a whole season of something at once. no, it's it's they're they release it like weekly, like, oh, you know, like you were watching it on TV. It's so annoying. And my wife and I are just like, well, is it Wednesday yet? Can we can we watch the next episode? but in between that, we've been watching Hijack with Idris Elba on Apple TV+. Have you seen that? Fantastic.

JB: Yeah, I just finished Letterkenny and,

JJ: Oh, I've seen a few episodes. Yeah. What was this?

JB: Shoresy. It's actually a spinoff of Letterkenny.

JJ: You're going you're going full Canadian.

JB: Hey, you know, I it's Vermont. You know, Quebec's right there.

JJ: Yeah, I know I love it. I might go back. Well hell you're yeah I do. Yeah I know I if I'm, I'm in Buffalo and if I'm too close to the water then I'll switch over to Rogers Cellular.

JB: Do you get like charged for that if like.

JB: No that really happens

JJ: The plans now you don't get really. And I turned off international roaming. Yeah. so I, you know I never I haven't gotten charged for that in like ten years, but.

JB: Wow.

JJ: No, that really happened. I'll get a text Welcome to Canada and I'll be sitting in Buffalo.

JB: Yeah. You look down, you see Bell or Rogers and it's like, what? I didn't even know it could do that. Um, so. Okay, so kind of flipping back

Nuclear Boats are Boring Compared to Web Development

JB:  How did you decide to go from, as I understand it, developing software for nuclear submarines to being a front end, architect.

JJ: Yes. I for five years. Well I, I was working on software for about six months and then I was a computer engineer, in college and then I got bored writing software and, I started doing, support for the Navy, where I would go down to the boats every day and, like, figure out what their problems were that they were having, and then come back, and work out a plan and then implement it and, you know, fix their problems, basically, and make sure that the new boats that they were making were, you know, they any issues they were having, I would go help troubleshoot them and make sure that everything was working as it should and progress was happening. and then I started, doing a whole bunch of research for the new ballistic submarines. And I just thought that was boring again. Um, and in the meantime, I had been building websites just for friends and on the side, just because I thought it was interesting and I liked it. and then I, got hooked up with, one of our buddies, Andy, and through a through a family member, and, the rest is history. I came over and actually, I was writing Java at first, which you don't want me writing Java. That's a terrible idea. And then we had an opening for. We needed some front end help. I said, oh, I would absolutely love to do that. And the rest is history. I've been doing that ever since.

JB: Nice. Josh Jensen, thank you for joining us for high velocity commerce Chats. Uh, it was really great to get your get your viewpoint today. I really appreciate talking about, uh, infinite scroll and Wysiwyg editors with you.

JJ: Yes. Thanks for having me. It was great catching up with you.